Talks with Ramana 14

 https://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Talks-with-Sri-Ramana-Maharshi--complete.pdf

490

In the course of the discourse Sri Bhagavan also made a few points clearer: 

Abhyasa consists in withdrawal within the Self every time you are disturbed by thought. 

It is not concentration or destruction of the mind but withdrawal into the Self.

 Dhyana, bhakti, japa, etc., are aids to keep out the multiplicity of thoughts. A single thought prevails which too eventually dissolves in the Self.

The questioner quoted that the mind starved of ideas amounted to realisation and asked what the experience is in that state.

 He himself read out a passage from Mr. Brunton that it was indescribable. The answer was there. He again ventured out that it must be like looking through an unsilvered mirror, as contrasted with the present experience corresponding to looking on a silvered mirror. 

Sri Bhagavan said it was a mirror facing another clear mirror, i.e., no reflection.

.......

D.: Am I to think “Who am I”? 

M.: You have known that the ‘I-thought’ springs forth. Hold the ‘I' thought and find its moola (source).

D.: Please tell me the way. 

M.: Is it necessary to show the way in the interior of your own home? This is within you. 

D.: What do you advise me to do? 

M.: Why should you do anything and what should you do? Only keep quiet. Why not do so? Each one must do according to his own state.

..

M.: The Self was pointed out to you to cover the universe and also transcend it. The world cannot remain apart from the Self. If the realisation of such Self be called selfishness that selfishness must cover the world also. It is nothing contemptible.

D.: Does not the realised man continue to live just like a non-realised being? 

M.: Yes, with this difference that the realised being does not see the world as being apart from the Self, he possesses true knowledge and the internal happiness of being perfect, whereas the other person sees the world apart, feels imperfection and is miserable. Otherwise their physical actions are similar.

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M.: Is the cinema screen affected by a scene of fire burning or sea rising? So it is with the Self. 

The idea that I am the body or the mind is so deep that one cannot get over it even if convinced otherwise.

 One experiences a dream and knows it to be unreal on waking. Waking experience is unreal in other states. So each state contradicts the others. They are therefore mere changes taking place in the seer, or phenomena appearing in the Self, which is unbroken and remains unaffected by them. 

Just as the waking, dream and sleep states are phenomena, so also birth, growth and death are phenomena in the Self. which continues to be unbroken and unaffected. 

Birth and death are only ideas. They pertain to the body or the mind. 

The Self exists before the birth of this body and will remain after the death of this body. 

So it is with the series of bodies taken up in succession. The Self is immortal. The phenomena are changeful and appear mortal. The fear of death is of the body. It is not true of the Self. 

Such fear is due to ignorance. 

Realisation means True Knowledge of the Perfection and Immortality of the Self. 

Mortality is only an idea and cause of misery. You get rid of it by realising the Immortal nature of the Self.

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The same lady continued: If the world is only a dream, how should it be harmonised with the Eternal Reality? 

M.: The harmony consists in the realisation of its inseparateness from the Self.

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M.: The spirit is differentiated from matter and is full of life. The body is animated by it.

M.: He sees the world but not as separate from the Self.

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D.: If the world is full of pain why should he continue the world-idea? 

M.: Does the realised being tell you that the world is full of pain? It is the other one who feels the pain and seeks the help of the wise saying that the world is painful. Then the wise one explains from his experience that if one withdraws within the Self there is an end of pain. 

The pain is felt so long as the object is different from oneself. But when the Self is found to be an undivided whole who and what is there to feel? 

The realised mind is the Holy Spirit and the other mind is the home of the devil. 

For the realised being, this is the Kingdom of Heaven. 

“The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.” That Kingdom is here and now.

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496

Talk 489.

 Another group of visitors was asking the method of Realisation. 

In the course of a reply Sri Bhagavan said: 

“Holding the mind and investigating it is advised for a beginner. 

But what is the mind after all? It is a projection of the Self. 

See for whom it appears and from where it rises. 

The ‘I-thought’ will be found to be the root-cause. 

Go deeper; the ‘I-thought’ disappears and there is an infinitely expanded ‘I-consciousness’. 

That is otherwise called Hiranyagarbha. 

When it puts on limitations it appears as individuals.”

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M.: If Realisation be something outside you a way can be shown consistent with the safety of the individual, his capacity. etc. Then the questions if it is realisable and, if so, in what time - will also arise. But here, Realisation is of the Self. You cannot remain without the Self. The Self is always realised. But only you do not recognise the fact. 

The Realisation is now obscured by the present world idea. 

The world is now seen outside you and the idea associated with it obscures your real nature. All that is needed is to overcome this ignorance and then the Self stands revealed. 

No special effort is necessary to realise the Self. All efforts are for eliminating the present obscuration of the Truth. 

A lady is wearing a necklace round her neck. She forgets it, imagines it to be lost and impulsively looks for it here, there and everywhere. Not finding it, she asks her friends if they have found it anywhere, until one kind friend points to her neck and tells her to feel the necklace round the neck. The seeker does so and feels happy that the necklace is found. 

Again, when she meets her other friends, they ask her if her lost necklace was found. She says ‘yes’ to them, as if it were lost and later recovered. Her happiness on re-discovering it round her neck is the same as if some lost property was recovered. In fact she never lost it nor recovered it. And yet she was once miserable and now she is happy. 

So also with the realisation of the Self. The Self is always realised. The Realisation is now obscured. When the veil is removed the person feels happy at rediscovering the ever-realised Self. The ever-present Realisation appears to be a new Realisation. 

Now, what should one do to overcome the present ignorance. 

Be eager to have the true knowledge. 

As this eagerness grows the wrong knowledge diminishes in strength until it finally disappears.

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M.: There is no connection between Self-Realisation and individual predispositions (samskara). It is not always possible to live up to the ideal of the Guru. 

D.: Do not passions affect Realisation? 

M.: The attempt to cleanse oneself will be automatic. 

D.: Is it not necessary to wash off all impurities before Realisation? 

M.: Jnana will wash them clean.

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M.: Investigate and see if there is any individuality at all. Ask this question after solving this problem.

 Nammalvar says: “In ignorance I took the ego to be myself; however, with right knowledge, the ego is nowhere and only you remain as the Self.” 

Both monists and dualists are agreed on the necessity of Self Realisation.

 Let us do it first and then discuss the side-issues. Advaita or dvaita cannot be decided on theoretical considerations alone. If the Self is realised the question will not arise at all. 

Even Suka had no confidence in his brahmacharya whereas Sri Krishna was sure of his brahmacharya. Self-Realisation is designated by so many different names, satya, brahmacharya, etc. What is natural to the state of Self-Realisation forms the disciplinary course in the other state. 

“I-am-the-body” idea will become extinct only on Self-Realisation. With its extinction the vasanas become extinct and all virtues will remain ever.

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D.: Samskaras are said to persist even in a Jnani. 

M.: Yes. They are bhoga hetu (leading to enjoyment only) and not bandha hetu.

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502

D.: How can they be rendered weaker? 

M.: By knowledge. You know that you are not the mind. The desires are in the mind. Such knowledge helps one to control them. 

D.: But they are not controlled in our practical lives. 

M.: Every time you attempt satisfaction of a desire the knowledge comes that it is better to desist. Repeated reminders of this kind will in due course weaken the desires. 

What is your true nature? How can you ever forget it? Waking, dream and sleep are mere phases of the mind. They are not of the Self. You are the witness of these states. Your true nature is found in sleep.

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Satva is the light, Rajas is the subject, and Tamas is the object.

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M.: Read the life and you will understand. Jnana and ajnana are of the same degree of truth; that is, both are imagined by the ignorant; that is not true from the standpoint of the Jnani

..Again since the ajnani, though he is not the doer, yet imagines himself to be the doer and considers the actions of the body his own, he thinks the Jnani to be similarly acting when the body is active. But the Jnani himself knows the Truth and is not confounded. The state of a Jnani cannot be determined by the ajnani and therefore the question troubles only the ajnani and never does it arise for the Jnani. If he is a doer he must determine the nature of the actions. The Self cannot be the doer. Find out who is the doer and the Self is revealed.

.

M.: The Jnani sees no one as an ajnani. All are only jnanis in his sight. 

In the ignorant state one superimposes his ignorance on a Jnani and mistakes him for a doer.

 In the state of jnana, the Jnani sees nothing separate from the Self. 

The Self is all shining and only pure jnana. 

So there is no ajnana in his sight. There is an illustration for this kind of allusion or super-imposition. Two friends went to sleep side by side. One of them dreamt that both of them had gone on a long journey and had strange experiences. On waking up he recapitulated them and asked his friend if it was not so. The other one simply ridiculed him saying that it was only his dream and could not affect the other. So it is with the ajnani who superimposes his illusive ideas on others.

Regarding ajnana in early youth and jnana at the present time, Sri Bhagavan said:

 There is no jnana as it is commonly understood. The ordinary ideas of jnana and ajnana are only relative and false. They are not real and therefore not abiding. The true state is the non-dual Self. It is eternal and abides whether one is aware or not. It is like kanthabharana or the tenth man.

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M.: That one is not external. You mistake the body for the Guru. But the Guru does not think himself so. He is the formless Self. That is within you; he appears without only to guide you.

.....................507...................................

M.: True. See if you are the seeker. The Self is often mistaken for the knower. Is there not the Self in deep sleep, i.e., nescience? 

Therefore the Self is beyond knower and knowledge. 

These doubts are in the realm of mind. To speak from this point of view, the advice is to keep the mind clear, and when rajas and tamas are wiped off, then the sattva mind alone exists. So the ‘I’ vanishes in the sattva (oonadhal kan). 

Jnana chakshus does not mean that it is an organ of perception like the other sense-organs. Jnanameva chakshuh. Television, etc., are not functions of jnana chakshus. So long as there is a subject and also an object it is only relative knowledge. 

Jnana lies beyond relative knowledge. It is absolute. The Self is the source of subject and object. Now ignorance prevailing, the subject is taken to be the source. The subject is the knower and forms one of the triads whose components cannot exist independent of one another. So the subject or the knower cannot be the ultimate Reality. Reality lies beyond subject and object. When realised there will be no room for doubt.

 “Bhidyate hridayagranthih chhidyante sarvasamsayah.” 

The heart knot is snapped; doubts are set at rest. That is called pratyaksha and not what you are thinking of. 

Avidya nasa is alone Self-Realisation. 

Self-Realisation is only owpacharika. 

Self Realisation is only a euphemism for elimination of ignorance.

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510

Whereas there is duality in the waking state and desire also is there. Because of duality a desire arises for the acquisition of the object. That is the outgoing mind, which is the basis of duality and of desire. If one knows that Bliss is none other than the Self the mind becomes inward turned. If the Self is gained all the desires are fulfilled.

...

510

M.: What is wanted for gaining the highest goal is loss of individuality. 

The intellect is co-extensive with individuality. 

Loss of individuality can only be after the disappearance of buddhi, good or bad. 

The question therefore does not arise.

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M.: The Master is not outside you as you seem to imagine. He is within, is in fact the Self. Recognise this truth. Seek within you and find Him there. Then you will have constant communion with Him. The message is always there; it is never silent; it can never forsake you: nor can you ever move away from the Master. Your mind is outgoing. Because of that tendency it sees objects as being outside and the Master among them. But the Truth is different. 

The Master is the Self.

 Turn the mind within and you will find the objects within. You will also realise that it is the Master who is your very Self and there is nothing but Him. Because you identify yourself with the body you have accepted objects as being outside you.

 But are you the body? You are not. You are the Self. 

There are all the objects and the whole universe. Nothing can escape the Self. How then can you move away from the Master who is your very Self? 

Suppose your body moves from place to place; does it ever move away from your Self? 

Similarly, you can never be without the Master.

 Mr. Lorey was struck by the answer although he was already familiar with the Master’s ways. He was even visibly moved. He prayed that the Grace of the Master might abide with him.

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Sri Bhagavan: The Master being the Self. Grace is inseparable from the Self.

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M.: Is there any moment when you have not realised the Self? Can you ever be apart from the Self? You are always That.

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Talk 512. 

Sri Bhagavan said: All mistake the mind-consciousness for Self Consciousness. 

There is no mind in deep sleep; but no one denies his being in sleep. 

Even a child says on waking, “I slept well,” and does not deny its existence. The ‘I’ rises up, the mind turns outward through the five senses and perceives objects, this they call direct perception. 

Asked if ‘I’ is not directly perceived, they get confused, because ‘I’ does not announce itself as an object in front and only the perception with the senses can be recognised by them as knowledge: this habit is so strong with them. A stanza in Thevaram says: “O sages, eager to get over all misery, worry not about inferences and examples! Our Light is ever shining forth from within! With mind clear, live in God!” This is direct perception. 

Will the common people admit it? They want God to appear in front of them as a bright Being mounted on a bull. Such a vision once originated must also end. It is therefore transient. 

Thevaram speaks of the Eternal and Ever-experienced Being. This Thevaram takes one directly to the Reality. 

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524

Knowledge (jnana) is not incompatible with ignorance (ajnana) because the Self in purity is found to remain along with ignorance-seed (ajnana beeja) in sleep. But the incompatibility arises only in the waking and dream states. 

Ajnana has two aspects: avarana (veiling) and vikshepa (multiplicity). 

Of these, avarana (veiling) denotes the veil hiding the Truth. That prevails in sleep. Multiplicity (vikshepa) is activity in different times.

This gives rise to diversity and prevails in waking and dream states (jagrat and svapna). If the veil, i.e., avarana is lifted, the Truth is perceived. 

It is lifted for a Jnani and so his karana sarira (causal body) ceases to exist. 

Vikshepa alone continues for him. Even so, it is not the same for a Jnani as it is for an ajnani. 

The ajnani has all kinds of vasanas, i.e., kartrtva (doership) and bhoktrtva (enjoyership), whereas the Jnani has ceased to be doer (karta). 

Thus only one kind of vasana obtains for him. That too is very weak and does not overpower him, because he is always aware of the Sat-Chit-Ananda nature of the Self. 

The tenuous bhoktrtva vasana is the only remnant of the mind left in the Jnani and he therefore appears to be living in the body.

 This explanation when applied to the mantra amounts to this: 

A Jnani has his karana sarira destroyed; 

the sthula sarira (gross body) has no effect on him and is for all practical purposes destroyed too. 

The sukshma sarira (subtle body) alone remains. It is otherwise called ativahika sarira.

 It is this which is held by all persons after the physical body is given up. And with this they traverse to other lokas until another suitable physical body is taken. 

The Jnani is supposed to move in Brahmaloka with this sukshma sarira. Then that is also dissolved and he passes to final Liberation. 

The whole explanation is meant only for the onlooker. The Jnani himself will never raise such questions. He knows by his experience that he is not bound by any kind of limitations.

D.: What is the ‘final emancipation’ according to the foregoing explanation? 

M.: The ativahika or the sukshma sarira corresponds to the pure light which one experiences just after sleep and before the rise of the ego. It is Cosmic Consciousness. That is only the Light reflected from the Heart.

  When the reflection ceases and abides as the Original Light in the Heart it is final emancipation.

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D.: But Yoga Vasishtha says that the chitta (mind) of a jivanmukta is achala (unchanging). 

M.: So it is. Achala chitta (unchanging mind) is the same as suddha manas (pure mind).

 The jnani’s manas is said to be suddha manas. The Yoga Vasishtha also says that Brahman is no other than the jnani’s mind. So Brahman is suddha manas only.

D.: Will the description of Brahman as Sat-Chit-Ananda suit this suddha manas? For this too will be destroyed in the final emancipation. 

M.: If suddha manas is admitted, the Bliss (Ananda) experienced by the Jnani must also be admitted to be reflected. This reflection must finally merge into the Original. Therefore the jivanmukti state is compared to the reflection of a spotless mirror in another similar mirror. What will be found in such a reflection? Pure Akasa (Ether). Similarly, the jnani’s reflected Bliss (Ananda) represents only the true Bliss. These are all only words. 

It is enough that a person becomes antarmukhi (inward-bent). 

The sastras are not needed for an inward turned mind. They are meant for the rest.

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525

Talk 515. 

D.: In the explanation given yesterday, it is said that the removal of avarana results in the annihilation of the karana sarira. That is clear. But how is the gross body considered to fall off too? 

M.: The vasanas are of two kinds: bandha hetu (causing bondage) and bhoga hetu (only giving enjoyment).

 The Jnani has transcended the ego and therefore all the causes of bondage are inoperative. 

Bandha hetu is thus at an end and prarabdha (past karma) remains as bhoga vasana (to give enjoyment) only. Therefore it was said that the sukshma sarira alone survives jnana. Kaivalya says that sanchita Karma (stored Karma) is at an end simultaneously with the rise of jnana; that agami (Karma now collecting) is no longer operative owing to the absence of the sense of bondage, and that prarabdha will be exhausted by enjoyment (bhoga) only. 

Thus the last one will end in course of time and then the gross body also falls away with it. Sarira traya (the three bodies) and Karma traya (the three Karmas) are mere phrases meant for the delectation of debaters. A Jnani is not affected by any of them. An aspirant is instructed to find who he is. If he does so, he will take no interest in discussing such matters as the above. Find the Self and rest in Peace.

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A question arose if the world is real or unreal, since it is claimed to be both by the advaitins themselves. Sri Bhagavan said that it is unreal if viewed as apart from the Self and real if viewed as the Self.

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The Pandit asked about the operation of Grace. Is it the mind of the Guru acting on the mind of the disciple or anything different?

M.: The Highest Form of Grace is Silence (mowna). It is also the highest upadesa.

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D.: Vivekananda has also said that silence is the loudest form of prayer. 

M.: It is so, for the seeker’s silence Guru’s silence is the loudest upadesa. It is also Grace in its highest form. All other dikshas (initiations), e.g., sparsa, chakshus are derived from mowna (silence). They are therefore secondary. Mowna is the primary form. If the Guru is silent the seeker’s mind gets purified by itself.

Talk 519. 

M.: The mahavakyas and their interpretation lead to interminable discussions and keep the minds of the seekers engaged externally. 

To turn the mind inward the man must directly settle down in the ‘I’. 

Then there is an end of external activities and perfect Peace prevails. 

Later, a passage from the Yoga Vasishtha was read out before Sri Bhagavan, indicating initiation by look and initiation by touch. Sri Bhagavan observed: Dakshinamurti observed silence when the disciples approached Him. That is the highest form of initiation. It includes the other forms. 

There must be subject-object relationship established in the other dikshas. First the subject must emanate and then the object. Unless these two are there how is the one to look at the other or touch him? 

Mowna diksha is the most perfect; it comprises looking, touching and teaching. It will purify the individual in every way and establish him in the Reality

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